Bob Gilmore: Donal, I was listening last night to your piece Piano Accord -- obviously this piece deals with piano and some recorded sounds of piano accordion, and tries to find a fusion or possible overlaps between the two. Am I right in saying that unlike the two gentlemen on either side of me you’re not presently attached to an educational institution?

Donal Sarsfield: I am not attached to an educational institution, no.

BG: How do you, in a practical sense, manage to then deal with writing these kinds of pieces, as they involve a lot of use of technology? Do you have a set-up at home?

DS: A very minimal set-up.

BG: But is it enough to do what you want to do?

DS: No, it’s not. I had to buy all the software. I had a great time in Manchester [University] because I’d never used electronics before and I studied there with David Berezan and spent a lot of time in the studios. That piece Piano Accord was just a part of my own interest in the wheezings of piano accordion and its oscillations and the same oscillations that you find in the beatings of a piano.

BG: I suppose all three of you, despite having good track records already, are still really at the beginning of your careers as composers. I’m wondering if you could think a little bit ahead to where you see music going in the next decade -- say we had this conversation in ten years time, what do you think are going to be the main differences?

Peter Moran: I have found that there are many, shall we say, students of the modernists. There is a clear continuity from the total serialist school, and there are many fusion and side projects, and there is this one extra area, which I feel is a bit different, and this is the one that excites me. So I would expect in 10, 20 years that this area will have more character, it will be more differentiated from the more typical fusion approach, and it will have a responsive audience. Because in my experience I’ve seen audiences who aren’t familiar with new music but respond to what I believe is the composer’s input from techno or rock or jazz, or any influence that the composer would share with the audience. So I would expect that this would become more clearly defined in the years to come as a sub-genre or separate strand from the more modernist or fully improvised approach.

Dylan Rynhart: I would be an optimist, not a prophet. (That’s Nelson Mandela’s quote, not mine.) In terms of 10 years time: I would like to be able to turn to somebody that I don’t know, and if they were the product of the Irish musical environment they would know who Stravinsky is, they would know who Ligeti is possibly, but they would at least have gone to one or two concerts a year and they would not have any necessarily strong bias to new music. I think they would just be more aware of what composers are and what we do and how much music can fill people’s lives.

BG: So you’re talking about education primarily, are you? Or more in terms of the media?

DR: Across the board. It’s not just education. You go into education but you come out of education, so I guess in the education system it would be nice to see a development or a level playing field with other countries. But also just in terms of general audiences and in terms of general media coverage. Today you need to have some kind of quirk to get your music covered by the media. I sometimes wonder if these quirks in these experimental pieces are needed: it’s like a signature.

BG: Yes. I remember Kevin Volans told me that he was in New York a few years ago now and met a composer who only wrote music for rubber bands. So immediately you hear about that guy, of course, you never forget about him. It’s quite independent of what the music itself may or may not sound like. [laughter]

DR: I find the whole oppressive nature of this background music culture that we have really difficult. I’ve been teaching for a long time and one thing that really frightened me was this one student I had who couldn’t understand why people would just sit down and listen to music and do nothing else. I just thought it was such a shame. I think people really need to value music more. It’s because we’re getting into this technology age and everything is television and [mass] media. It’s so fast and we’ve passed the age of there being a piano in the room and people play out a tune from the latest show. In a way it’s great because over the last hundred years or so music has developed so much. Apart from the technology side, the compositions are getting more and more interesting. But just this business of having this pop music culture; or it’s almost like it’s got a function and the function seems to be just to give you this hit of harmony or a hit of dance music. I just don’t get it.

PM: I think what you’re not taking into account is the growing number of people who are looking for something different. They’re looking for something experimental, anything alternative. I have experience with this in Dublin and in York, just being surrounded by students, by artists who won’t necessarily know where the most interesting or the most hip new thing is happening. So I’ll be able to tell my friends in Dublin that they mightn’t be into this big modernist orchestra playing in the Helix one night, but they're going to love the Ligeti Piano Etudes the next night and they don't need a music degree to get into these. And likewise in York I’ve got lots of friends, say on the DJ or dance or rock circuit who would love to know when the next Gamelan concert is happening. And there are plenty in the music department who want to know where the best drum ’n’ bass nights are.

DR: As you’re finding, it’s letting the information get out there. I was thinking about that because CDs are becoming obsolete with downloads, the variety of people being able to get their music out there is so much easier because you can just download it. But then the question is, well, who gets to listen to it?

BG: I was going to pick up on what you were saying there, Dylan. I was wanting to ask all three of you, the fact that we are able to quickly get hold of whatever music we want these days is obviously changing our listening habits. I wonder, do you think that the old division people used to make between highbrow music, so-called serious music, and popular music, lowbrow music, is a distinction that’s meaningful anymore in this age where we can listen to anything we want to all the time on our own computer?

DR: I think it’s difficult to find what might be conceived as highbrow music because there’s so much out there and you can download so much. I’ve got this online subscription where you can download 70 tracks a month. So I download, I get all my money’s worth, but it’s very difficult to listen to all that music and it’s very difficult to really be able to find out what you’re really interested in. I think this is difficult because of the fact that people are very much genreless now. It’s like myself; I don’t want to be pigeonholed as a jazz musician. Nobody wants to be pigeonholed. But at the same time if you want to appeal to somebody you need to be able to tell them what you do. This was my interview topic when I went for my PhD interview: how do you describe your own music? And it’s very difficult for composers I think to put themselves in a box, and then if they don’t have a box then no one can go, ‘Oh, I like that box!’

PM: One thing that’s slower to change is the culture attached to it, because the majority of people would still put on their Sunday best when they go to the opera or the concert hall. It’s particularly funny to see in York where the concert hall is in the music department [of the university]. So the best dressed gent might be next to the untidiest looking student. So there’s a large cultural stigma around concert culture and this will be a lot slower to change.

BG: Donal, what do you think of that? Do you think that the genres are still with us or are we getting rid of genre identification?

DS: I think the whole argument of genre is a high art argument. I don’t think DJs will be saying, ‘I wonder how lowbrow or high-tech this Messiaen snippet is -- will I gain credibility among composers?’ We’re looking down on that argument, we’re not looking at a level playing field. DJs use that Messiaen clip because it sounds good. That’s it -- they don’t think about it, it works.

BG: You’ve all been involved at some stage along the line with improvisation. I want to ask how important that’s been for you in terms of your composed work?

DS: Well actually it was very strange going over to Banff for the creative music course in 2006. I felt very out of place and I spent most of the time in Banff going to the library. The course had 68 (for want of a better word) jazz musicians -- you get 67 of those people there getting to play standards in their role but yet they could all be quite free, whereas I wouldn’t have that [versatility]. I really think that there’s something that I get from being with improvisers and working with improvisers. It’s just fantastic. And I just happen to clumsily tinker around with improvised music. But a lot of my composition comes from improvisation. I’d like to play improvised concerts further on down the line. The reason I didn’t become a jazz musician was because of the level of technique, just the dedication that that needs. I don’t have that, so I became a composer. So I’m really a failed jazz musician. [laughter]

PM: Improvisation has had a huge effect on my writing because it’s just constantly reinventing the language. I love to improvise on the clarinet ever since I did my grade 1 for a charity thing three years ago. I immediately got into the bass clarinet. The reason that I love using the bass clarinet for free improv is because I don’t know how to play it. So there’s a whole wealth of sounds I can make that might be more difficult for someone who is a bit better than me. I mean a bit better, not so much better! But the result of those most recent experiments was that I discovered a lot of sounds, even after years of playing it I kept finding new sounds and fingerings and things that I liked. And Paul Roe [clarinettist] was a particular influence, because he uses a great range of sounds and loves to improvise as well. So I ended up just organising everything that was personal to me because there are sounds that I found and I enjoyed using in my improvisations and I just organised them into a composition for Paul to play, later on this year.

DR: Improvising at home as a composer is a super way of getting inspiration for anybody. I don’t tend to do it. Personally, the reason I don’t do it is because I’m always limited by what I can play. I think what I try to do is train my ear to hear things and then put that down. What I object to is this business of improvising as being something people just do. The idea of having training in it seems to be something that a lot of people forget about. A lot of jazz musicians get this, ‘Wow, you were incredible, you just pick it up and you play it.’ And they’ve been studying for years and really working hard and it becomes just second nature to them that they can go anywhere and they have the technique and the sensibilities to really perform something in a really sensitive way.

DS: There are levels in it -- to have the technique of Oscar Peterson but to be able to forget it.

DR: Exactly, totally.

DS: People are blind about technique quite often and it happens with composition as much as it happens with improvisation.

DR: I think every composer needs to be careful of the fact that if you are improvising on an instrument you are always limited by what you can do. And obviously if you’re experimenting with the sounds that it could possibly make -- I know it’s really bad to say this, but all of that stuff has been done as well. So you’re always limited.

PM: Obviously the best improviser would have the technique of Oscar Peterson. I wouldn’t rate my technique on any of the instruments I play because I’ve never spent my life just playing one of them. What improvisation is about for me is the balance within the group, the pacing of the piece, the composition of the piece as it unfolds. So I would use my limited resources and decide in the moment how to use it.

DR: Oh, I’m not criticising by any stretch of the imagination...

PM: So I may have only a few squeaks and squawks on the clarinet but I use them perfectly!

DR: But sometimes I feel I’m like the only person who wants to raise these issues. There has to be good music and bad music; but a lot of people say, ‘No, all music is great, I love everything; it’s great, brilliant.’ But for me I just can’t cope with that. I want the good stuff and none of the bad stuff! So what makes good improvisation? Is it that you bleed all over the keyboard when you’re playing? Or that you make no noise at all and that’s really cool and hip and different? Or maybe it’s that you have all the chops to play something like Bebop. To me improvisation is about communication on stage and it’s about collaboration. You could be the best improviser in the world but if you’re a bad listener then you’re done.

PM: That’s the difference for me. I have been thinking particularly of group improvisation. It’s absolutely about how well you can listen and how well the group works together. I direct the COMA [Contemporary Music for Amateurs] Yorkshire Group: all amateur musicians but amazing improvisers. I used to start with exercises, where they’d improvise within certain parameters. But eventually we just stopped doing that and just improvised freely and let our imagination wild. One particular thing that is most impressive is when they can all end together on a loud bit. Very difficult to do with improvisation because so many people have to fade it out. So there’s an incredible group dynamic and a great shared listening experience that all these guys have, with very little musical training.

BG: I’d like to ask a last question. Imagine that I’m an extremely wealthy philanthropist and I’ve got this huge amount of money to spend on making an educational institution for young composers in Ireland. We can design it any way you want. What would be some of the things that would go into that institution?

DR: I know exactly what I would do if I won the lottery, if that’s kind of a similar question. I’d set up a venue for this sort of thing with accommodation.

BG: Which sort of thing?

DR: Well for new music, for what I would consider I do and what everyone in the YCC (Young Composers’ Collective) and everyone in the CMC does. But make it so that it’s the nicest place to go. And maybe there’s a bar but it’s behind this super sound installation screen and there’s really good food there and then you have all these practice rooms upstairs and there’s a rehearsal room that’s really well lit and a beautiful airy space, but in the basement. You have a situation where you can have music going on all the time but it’s the best music, not just filling in before a concert. For example, say there was a regular concert in the concert hall and everyone knew that on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday they could go in and see some great music and it didn’t matter what was on but it was always what they liked. It would just be a really good environment.

BG: What would you add to that?

DS: I’d put it somewhere out in the country. [Laughs] I can’t help but feel I’m biased towards saying that.

DR: If it were in a part of the country where people went it would be great.

DS: Well, if you build it they will come. I would put it somewhere very remote. Somewhere where people would just use it for what it was and not have preconceived notions about what it’s supposed to be.

BG: So would there be an actual curriculum? Would there be a syllabus that all students would study or could you design your own syllabus in this ideal environment or what?

DS: You would have as many scores and recordings and performances and teachers as you could possibly get with all that money you had, and just have as large a pool of resources as you could get.

PM: I have actually been talking with friends about this for a couple of years now. One of the key issues is: Dublin desperately needs a central venue for new music, something that’s rock solid, always going to be there.

DS: Why does it have to be Dublin though? I just have to ask that question.

PM: OK, Ireland needs one. [Laughter] No, we were actually specifically speaking about a Dublin School of Contemporary Music, where it could be a central venue that would always be there and you always know that you can find the most up and coming students and the latest concerts, latest compositions and so you could constantly feed the environment and it would grow on its own reputation. I also would have to say, it deserves to be mentioned that the Irish Composition Summer School was the most enriching experience in my compositional life up to that point. I went twice in a row and it just blew my mind. The only other thing I could add is the particular system they have in York that impresses me is. It’s called a Project system and you don’t specifically have to do certain tasks like an X amount of essays or exams, but you are given freedom. Your final submission could be a festival; it could be putting on an opera or writing an opera, making an album, or making an installation. Whatever ideas you have, the most important thing is that you have the facilities and the people, the students and the staff who will support you in whatever your ideas are. And so all the events we have put on in York this weekend is because the opportunity is there and we were ready to do it. So having the space and the time and the people to make whatever you want to happen -- I’ve never seen anything like that here.

DR: It’s accessibility, isn’t it? You need to get the information and you want it right then and there. I’ve always found that very frustrating when I’m trying to learn. Imagine you could pick whom you wanted to learn from and all do it in this central area. And maybe have a big lake in the middle. And grass! [Laughter]

PM: But it has to be said that being away from Dublin the last four years, it’s just been so exciting to see all the new things that are happening. The new ensembles, new tours, festivals and all the things the YCC are doing and everyone around it and all the new organisations on the back of the ones that are established like the CMC, IMC (Improvised Music Company), and Music Network. The community is growing rapidly and it’s healthier than I’ve ever seen it. I think it just needs a little more time to settle. I think there’s a few streamlining processes that need to happen but I don’t think new music has ever been more exciting in Ireland than it is now and I’m really looking forward to coming back in a few years.

BG: Well I think that’s a very nice note to end on. Thank you very much indeed.

Peter Moran, Dylan Rynhart and Donal Sarsfield were interviewed on video by Bob Gilmore in the Science Gallery, Trinity College Dublin, on 12 May 2008.

CMC would like to thank the staff of the Science Gallery for the use of their cafe to record the interview.

The views expressed in this interview are those of the persons concerned and are not necessarily those of the Contemporary Music Centre.